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RE: Faith: rational or irrational?



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Hello,

I want to go back to the faith/rationality discussion. Initially Elaine asked a question which I don?t think was ever answered. This was: faith is held about something of which one is not sure. When one is not sure of something, one has doubt about it. Now in such cases, either one has faith in whatever it is ? where faith involves some degree of deliberation (this is what I take her use of the word ?rationality? to be), or else one is being tenacious. And since tenacity is a bad thing that no one would want to admit to, faith must be something that involves rationality.

I disagree. Here?s why.

1) Faith is something one has when one believes something that one is not certain about.
2) One is /never/ certain of anything in the preposterous philosophical sense that is being used here.
3) One is /always/ acting as though one is certain of something (not the same thing in each ?case?, obviously).
4) So one?s actions always involve faith (from (1) and (3)).
5) But one?s actions do not always involve rational deliberation.
6) So faith does not require rationality because at least some of one?s actions involve faith, are not merely tenacious (in the derogatory sense) and yet do not involve one in rational deliberations ((4), (5)).


The point here is a Wittgensteinian one not to do with the meaning of the word ?faith?, but to do with another idea that was touched on earlier in the discussion: that justifications always give out. That in whatever instance in which one is asked to give a justification, another can always be asked for, but eventually there will be no response that one can give ? you are left with things bottoming out at the point of, ?but I just do it.? ? in other words, justifications bottom out in action. This is why I think faith does not need to involve rationality in the sense alluded to. Faith is needed in even the most ?objective? of human practices (e.g. science, logic, mathematics). If you need evidence of that then look at some of Kuhn?s historical studies of science (don?t rely on what the physics textbooks tell you about the history of physics). It is human stubbornness (tenacity), that when applied in a detailed and un-thought-out way that much of scientific behaviour consists in, much like that of any religious denomination. That?s not to say they are the same thing, just that their difference lies in something other than the appealing or not appealing to faith.

Alex

From: "Elaine Yeadon" <elaine.yeadon@lineone.net>
To: BUPS-DIS@bups.org
Subject: Faith: rational or irrational?
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 16:07:17 +0100

To reply to this message or start a new topic please email: BUPS-DIS@bups.org


Faith: rational or irrational?

Should faith, which seems necessarily to involve some element of uncertainty
? some blindness on the part of the believer ? always be non-rational (or
even irrational) or does it involve some rational calculation?


[Disclaimer: I?m often confused about how to read Kierkegaard. I?m aware
that the following presents just one reading. But it is the idea itself in
which I?m interested, not really the accuracy of the literary interpretation
? heresy, I know?]


Kierkegaard is famed for arguing that faith defies rationality, for, in order
to be faith rather than knowledge, the commitment cannot be based on evidence.
In this sense it is ?blind?. Reacting against the more traditional rationalist
approach (especially when it was applied to religious belief), he abhorred
the idea that someone could claim to have a faith in God based on evidence
or logic, a notion exemplified by Pascal?s Wager, which reasoned that being
part of a Faith was the safer option. Briefly, the reasoning runs: If you
are wrong and there?s no God or Afterlife, then you haven?t lost much, whereas
if you are right and God does exist, then you are rewarded greatly rather
than being severely punished as those would be who did not follow him. For
Kierkegaard this was a superficial and selfish way to live based on scientific
evidence or calculation rather than on character and faith. As a result,
his writings distinguish between objective truths which he sees as the information
we gain through science, rationality and other worldly observations, and
subjective truths, recognized through passion, conviction and faith.


?the objective way of reflection leads to the objective truth, and while
the subject and his subjectivity become indifferent, the truth also becomes
indifferent, and this indifference is precisely its objective validity; for
all interest, like all decisiveness, is rooted in subjectivity. The way
of objective reflection leads to abstract thought, to mathematics, to historical
knowledge of different kinds; and always it leads away from the subject,
whose existence or non-existence, and from the objective point of view quite
rightly, becomes infinitely indifferent.? Concluding Unscientific Postscript


Specifically on faith he states:

?Faith does not simply result from scientific enquiry; it does not come directly
at all?Rather it is the case that in this voluminous knowledge, this certainty
that lurks at the door of faith and threatens to devour it, [the believer]
is in so dangerous a situation that much effort will be needed, in great
fear and trembling, lest he fall victim to the temptation to confuse knowledge
with faith.? Concluding Unscientific Postscript


However, another important aspect of subjective truth is that it requires
a full commitment. It makes no sense to say ?I believe that pigs can fly,
but I?m probably wrong?, for the element of doubt means that it is not full
belief. Thus for a truth to be fully subjective, there must be no reliance
on objective evidence and no element of doubt.

?if [the believer] had assumed [belief] by virtue of any proof he would have
been on the verge of giving up his faith.? Concluding Unscientific Postscript


Herein lies a problem for me. I don?t understand how one can allow for doubt
in the certainty of the belief without requiring some rationality, by which
the doubt can be dealt with or overcome. I fail to see how the ?blind? faith
so far discussed is anything but tenacity. The believer, to have real faith,
must surely recognize that his belief is epistemologically uncertain; otherwise
it would seem (to him) to be in the same category as the objective truth
which Kierkegaard argues destroys faith. Tenacity lacks the epistemological
value of faith because it takes into account neither the subjective ?passion?
of belief nor the objective justification.


We needn?t only consider religious faith here either. I think that the debate
can be applied to any epistemologically uncertain or seemingly non-provable
belief. Many people would accept the rational element of faith in a theory
for day-to-day, scientific or otherwise academic beliefs, but not allow a
rational component of religious Faith (capital f). Is this justified? ? many
people claim to experience God just as clearly as they experience the material
processes of science. It?s not clear to me that people have less of a justification
to look for reasons to believe in God than they do to believe scientific
theories.


For the record, I don?t think Pascal?s Wager provides rational reason for
faith ? it?s more of a rational motivation to try to come to faith. However,
I think it does emphasize the requirement for recognizing uncertainty and
acting upon it rationally.
So, what do you think? Must faith involve rationality? Must it preclude
it?


-Elaine



[I?m eager to avoid the following discussion becoming a theist-bashing exercise,
so could we focus on the question of whether or not faith should be rational,
not whether people are correct to believe in God? Thank you :-) ]




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