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Re: Lucid Dreaming?

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Further to these thoughts I have to say my experience makes me sceptical of
Lucid Dreams. On the rare occassion I have managed, with difficulty to make
a consciously willed act in a dream (usually to escape some unpleasant
scenario in a nightmare) I have always woken up straight away as a result.

~John Griffiths.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tatjana Wingender" <u01tw3@abdn.ac.uk>
To: <BUPS-DIS@bups.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 2:12 PM
Subject: Re: Lucid Dreaming?


> To reply to this message or start a new topic please email:
BUPS-DIS@bups.org
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I have heard of this phenomenon and experienced it once (as far as I can
> remember) myself which was really interesting. But I didn't know anything
> else about it and I'm not sure I would like to try and train myself to do
> it. What for? I can imagine it being helpful in case one has a lot of
> nightmares - then it might be possible to comfort oneself during having a
> nightmare with the "knowledge" (? - feeling might be a better word) that
> it is just a nightmare and nothing more. Fortunately I don't have a lot of
> nightmares and enjoy being completely immersed in my dreams.
>
> Anyway, I just wanted to make a few remarks regarding some of the things
> you mentioned:
>
> 1)"we have the notion of self, which we use to differentiate the thinking
> entity (oneself)from the object of thought, or potential objects of
> thought": I know that this notion exists but what happens when I think
> about myself. Am I really split between me as the thinking entity and me
> as the object I am thinking about? Maybe it's just language and brain
> capability that forces us to formulate it like this (and maybe also
> science in order to be able to objectify, examine and to make scientific
> statements about such phenomena).
>
> 2) "what is it like to be fully self-conscious within a dream, when the
> dream itself is something that is in the mind": Where is
> self-consciousness located? I think it is also in the mind. Or is it in
> the brain? Or are brain and mind the same thing? The old question of
> duality. Where does the dreaming happen - brain or mind - and where the
> self-consciousness? And if it happens in the same location then maybe
> there are more layers of the brain/mind consciousness, e.g. subconscious
> activities like all the things that keep the body alive and well and are
> done without us thinking about it like breathing and blood-pumbing etc,
> inbetween conscious activities like dreaming and fully (more or less)
> conscious activities like thinking hard about philosophical problems. A
> lot of activities will probably not fall exactly into any of those
> categories but somewhere inbetween and there are probably more categories
> possible.
>
> 3) The problem with science (at least with respect to the experiments
> described below that try to find out what lucid dreaming is all about) is
> - in my opinion - that scientists start from the assumption either that
> brain and mind are the same thing or that there is only brain and no mind
> (which leads to more or less the same result, i.e. investigate the brain
> functions and you know all there is to know). But this assumption is sill
> debated - at least in philosophical circles. Therefore, how good a guide
> can science be?
>
> All the best,
> Tatjana
>
>
> > To reply to this message or start a new topic please email:
> > BUPS-DIS@bups.org
> >
> >
> > I was introduced to the term Lucid Dreaming by someone I wouldn't
> > exactly trust for anything scientific, as he/she has displayed a
> > tendency for falling for any spiritualist nonsense, however I've run
> > into (or rather "talked into") discussions on the matter with several
> > other people since then, some of them trustworthy scientists (some of
> > them even oxbridge dons... although that's not necessarily a
> > guarantor of validity/trustworthiness :), and must admit that for all
> > my skepticism, I cannot help but be a bit curious about the topic.
> >
> > For those unfamiliar with the topic, "lucid dreaming" is a proto-
> > science (in the kuhnian sense of a theory which follows scientific
> > method but, being in its infancy or embryonic state, has not been
> > [entirely] validated [yet]) which is surrounded by a lot of pseudo-
> > science, and deals with the state of being in a dream whilst being
> > conscious of oneself being in a dream. This, obviously, not the same
> > thing as simply remembering ones dream, or having a realistic dream.
> >
> > My skepticism on the matter stems from the fact that it seems that
> > the only validating experiment is observable only from the standpoint
> > of personal experience, and therefore does not really conform to the
> > scientific method maxims of repeatability (the conditions change from
> > individual to individual, since the act of perception is not only
> > central to any experimental observation, but who is observing and
> > when is as well). However I'm informed there have been some
> > experiments on the matter carried out at Stanford by S. LaBerge,
> > which attempt to avoid the "internalization" of observation, and
> > produce scientifically verifiable (replicable) results. Such
> > experiments have involved detecting REM phases in sleeping test
> > subjects, and either trying to prompt lucid dreaming through photonic-
> > flash cues, or simply detecting pre-arranged cues from the subject
> > while they are in a "certifiable" dream (REM) state (I say
> > "certifiable" because I recall reading in some paper or other that
> > recent research demonstrates our ability to dream in non-REM sleep
> > states).
> >
> > While as a (would be) scientist, I find this to be a lot less dodgy
> > method for investigating the existence and essence of lucid dreaming,
> > rather  than taking someone's word for it, it's still very
> > unsatisfactory, since it really doesn't tell us much (or anything at
> > all, if you want to be rigorous about it) about what lucid dreaming
> > is, and is like. This is a shame, since I believe there's quite a lot
> > of interesting philosophy to be done on the matter (which, I suppose,
> > it a rather obvious statement). For example, we have the notion of
> > self, which we use to differentiate the thinking entity (oneself)
> > from the object of thought, or potential objects of thought
> > (basically, the external world... although I'm fully aware that this
> > becomes problematic if you ask what we are thinking about when we
> > think about concepts that bear no possible physical tokens). However,
> > what is it like to be fully self-conscious within a dream, when the
> > dream itself is something that is in the mind. What is it to have
> > intentional states about an external environment which is in fact
> > internal? Are the waking me on one hand, or the intentional,
> > conscious me in a lucid dream on the other hand, the same person, or
> > is the latter just a fraction of the former?
> >
> > Has anyone else looked into the topic at all? Whether you have or
> > not, I'd be very happy to hear from you if you have any recommended
> > reading on or around the topic, or have any thoughts on the matter
> > that you'd like to share.
> >
> > All the best,
> > Edward.
> >
> >
> > Browse or search the BUPS-DIS archives, or unsubscribe from the mailing
> > list at: http://www.bups.org/mailinglist.shtml
> >
>
>
>
>
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