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Re: Lucid Dreaming?



In a message dated 26/11/2006  u01tw3@abdn.ac.uk writes:
Tatjana: Where is self-consciousness located?
 
Dear Tatjana:
I really enjoyed you profoundly thoughtful post.  However, for an eliminativist like me self-consciousness is  located in  the same place as *consciousness* - Nowhere - it doesn't exist.
 
Tatjana: I think it is also in the mind.
 
Jud: It can't be - the *mind* doesn't exist either. Only thinking brainmeat exists.
[see the powerful professorial Neuro-philosophical partnership of Paul and Patricia S. Churchland, Department of Philosophy, University of California.
 
Tatjana: Or is it in the brain?
 
Jud: Bingo! Yes.
 
But...
 
They seek it here, they seek it there,
Those Trannies* seek it everywhere.
Is it in heaven?  Or is it in hell?
That damned dualistic Pimpernel!
 
(*Trannies* diminutive of *transcendentalists.)
 
Tatjana: Or are brain and mind the same thing?
 
Jud: No - only the thinking meat we call the brain exists. *The useful fictions *mind, consciousness, self, ego, id, psyche, nous, noesis, intellect* and all the rest of the sad, inventive litany of mankind's self delusional formative period, have now outlived their usefulness and are now ready to be kicked away like Wittgenstein's ladder. A new descriptive nomenclature needs to be created which addresses actual physical nominata rather than the existing reificational ragbag, which points to wild physical imaginings dredged from the past.
 
Tatjana: The old question of duality. Where does the dreaming happen - brain or mind - and where the self-consciousness?
 
Jud:
*Dreaming* and *self-consciousness* doesn't happen anywhere. Only the self-conscious dreamer exists.
 
Tatjana: And if it happens in the same location then maybe there are more layers of the brain/mind consciousness, e. g. subconscious activities like all the things that keep the body alive and well and are done without us thinking about it like breathing and blood-pumping etc, in between conscious activities like dreaming and fully (more or less) conscious activities like thinking hard about philosophical problems. A lot of activities will probably not fall exactly into any of those categories but somewhere in between and there are probably more categories possible.
 
Jud: *Activities* do not exist anywhere [a mythic product of primitive man.] Only that which is active exists.
 
i. e. *Fishing* does not exist. The fisherman exists, the water exists, the riverine bank exists, the fish and the fisherman's rod and his line exist - but the so-called *activity* of
*fishing* does not exist.
 
Tatjana:
3) The problem with science (at least with respect to the experiments described below that try to find out what lucid dreaming is all about) is
- in my opinion - that scientists start from the assumption either that brain and mind are the same thing or that there is only brain and no mind
(which leads to more or less the same result, i. e. investigate the brain functions and you know all there is to know). But this assumption is still debated - at least in philosophical circles. Therefore, how good a guide can science be?
 
Jud: It is only debated in philosophical circles by those people who have an ontological axe to grind - or those who have published books and made speeches in the past and are too embarrassed to get up to ontological speed and admit they were wrong about their fantasies, etc.
No *dualist in the last three-thousand years has ever been able to prove the existence of these mentalistic [mostly religiously inspired] spectres and *things that never go bump in the night,* and they never will.  Thus does philosophy drag these dead ideas behind them like a damp, discarded dressing-gown.  ;-)
 
A SAS aircraft is warming-up on the tarmac at Cloud Cuckooland's National Airport to waft any dualist up into the clouds and off to Stockholm, Sweden where the patiently waiting Götes och Vendes Konung is poised to pin a Nobel Medal on the chest of any transcendentalist who proves otherwise. Yes, I know it is a disgraceful waste of aviation spirit and a prime example of environmental pollution.
 
Just my tuppence-ha'penny worth. ;-)
 
All the best to you Tatjana.
 
I would be interested to hear what you or anybody else thinks of the eliminativist approach?
 
Some stuff can be found here.
 
 
regards,

Jud Evans.
Personal Website:
http://evans-experientialism.freewebspace.com/index.htm