[Bups-dis] A query regarding the translation of Frege's 'On Sense and Reference'

[Duncan Crowe]

I recall there being a discussion of the issue of translating bedeutung 
somewhere in Michael Beaney's 'The Frege Reader'. I don't quite recall 
what it said but I believe the jist was simply that it was a convention 
prompted by Michael Dummett to leave bedeutung untranslated because he 
felt 'meaning' was undesirable because obviously what Frege is talking 
about is (if you'll pardon the awkward expression) an aspect of meaning 
and he felt 'reference' mistakenly gave the impression that what Frege 
meant by bedeutung was the same thing as what Russell meant by 
reference*. I advise looking it out if you're particularly interested in 
the issue.

Duncan.

*One reason this clearly can't be the case - I've the nagging feeling 
I'm stealing this from Alex Miller - is because Frege talks about the 
bedeutung of all true sentences as being 'the true' which is complete 
gibberish if we understand bedeuting in Russell's sense, but becomes a 
bit more comprehensible if we understand it as 'the value' of something 
or 'the thing which determines the truth value of the linguistic unit 
concerned'.

P.S. For the sense/reference distinction you should also look at the 
Letter to Jourdain which is both short and clear. It can also be found 
in Beaney.

Andrew Bacon wrote:
> To reply to this message or start a new topic please email: BUPS-DIS at bups.org
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>
> I think I heard that quite literally "bedeutung" translates as "meaning".
> However Frege has a very specific and technical use of the words "sinn" and
> "bedeutung", which of course, neither English nor German had a name for prior to
> his writings. 
>
> I'm not sure anything illuminating about Frege's distinction between sense and
> reference could be gleaned from a correct translation of these words. But the
> best place to look to see how Frege is using these terms would be his original
> writings. (He gives a relatively clear exposition of the distinction in 'on
> sense and reference' and in 'on function and concept'.)
>
>
>
>   
>> To reply to this message or start a new topic please email: BUPS-DIS at bups.org
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>>
>> Dear all,
>>  
>> Is anyone here familiar with German? The reason I ask is because I have for
>>     
> some time now been frustrated at the way in which there is no single,
> universally-accepted translation for Frege's 'Uber Sinn Und Bedeutung'. Usually,
> but not always, 'Sinn' is translated as 'sense' and 'Bedeutung' is translated as
> 'reference'. However, I have also come across texts that render 'Sinn' as
> 'meaning', as well as texts that render 'Bedeutung' as 'meaning', with the
> confusing consequence that Frege's famous text is sometimes called 'On Sense and
> Meaning' and sometimes called 'On Meaning and Reference'.
>   
>>  
>> Furthermore, on reading Dermot Moran's 'Introduction to Phenomenology' I came
>>     
> across the word 'Bezeihung', which Moran translates as 'reference'. If this is
> the case, then can anyone tell me what the difference is between 'Bezeihung' and
> 'Bedeutung'?
>   
>>  
>> I realise of course that the subteties inherent in these terms mean that they
>>     
> are probably very difficult to translate. However, I would be most grateful if
> anyone is able to shed light on the differences between 'Sinn', 'Bedeutung' and
> 'Bezeihung', and the correct translations for these terms.
>   
>>  
>> Regards,
>> Josh
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